In this UNLAWYERLY episode, Ramin talks about law school and getting a law career.
In this UNLAWYERLY episode, Ramin talks about law school and getting a law career.
Speaker 1 00:00
So, let's talk about law school and law, careers and general.
Speaker 2 00:06
I had gotten a request regarding doing a topic on this, and i think it is a worthwhile and hopefully informative Uh, because perhaps you're thinking about law school and law career. Perhaps, you're not, maybe after this, you might.
Speaker 1 00:23
I think, first and foremost, Let's start off with something, you know. Being
Speaker 2 00:28
A lawyer. Um, there's a lot of prestige. There's, It's held in high regard, but there's also another side to it, you know. A lawyer life is not easy. Uh, to say the least there was this one. CLE that i was listening to and there was a continuing education. And i posted this one instagram because it may be chuckle and said being a lawyer is like writing a bike. Uh except that the bike is on fire, you're on fire. Everything is on fire and while some of you may think that i'm being exaggerating, here it is a very high stress type job. There is a big adversarial component of it, whether you go and transactional or litigational kind of go into that, And unfortunately, within the Legal field. There is a significant. Percentage of alcohol abuse. Uh, and also there are mental health. Now, some of you may be in other fields, Medicine engineering teaching and you probably think well, it's in our field as well. I think what i'm trust trying to get out is first from a foremost, you need to consider. Why would you even want to go to law school? Why would you want to become a lawyer?
Speaker 1 01:49
Yeah, you
Speaker 2 01:49
Can make a decent amount of money depending on what air you practice. If you go into big law, open up your own practice, etc. But it's one of those things where i think you really need to understand yourself and think about why you're doing it. One of the best things that i could think you can do is shadow someone if you are able to and just kind of get a day and a life of i think experience helps more so than anything else. And that's why with a when i was in law school not going to that we had you know the summer internships and the summer of your second year or since i was a part-time student third year and it gave us real life example. As far as what Um, you know, being a lawyer was about. So Kind of get that out of the way. I'm not saying any of this, because I am anything against You know, having gone into law school or being a lawyer. I i love the law. I have enjoyed it even during the time that i was practicing and big law outside of the fact that i was very fast paced that it was always constant fight or flight. And i felt like that, i really enjoyed what i was doing. It was very challenging. It was intellectually stimulating, you're working with a lot of smart people, you know? It's like a game of chess and you're playing with someone who has just as great of a skill set as as you do. So, you know, depending on what area of the law you go into. You can you can do a lot of good. But i'm not saying any of this to discourage anyone. I remember when i was in ninth grade, Uh, or maybe it was 10th grade. My. History teacher. For those of you who follow me have listened to some other podcasts. You already know the story, her husband was a transactional lawyer, and she just told me he was constantly be working, rarely home, And it scared me out of going into law school. Actually, i did not even consider going to law school. I was like uh not doing this and so i started my career as Uh, going to business school at uva and i focused on audit and taxation and i was a CPA initially Um and over the course of time, you know, my father was one of those people who's like, you know, i think you should be doing something else and i always joke about this. I really thought he disliked CPAs and eventually i went to law school, but for me it was just one of those things where at the beginning I was like, i'm not gonna consider a law school because being a lawyer, is just very tough. It's a lot of work. But look, anything is in life. It's a lot of work on depending on what you're doing, of course, but everything requires you to put your time into it. So at the very beginning, find out why You want to go into? To law and, you know, kind of do that research. It's very important. But as far as law schools concerned, look there's really two segments. One of that is people who go from undergrad and they go straight into law school. And then you have another segment that goes into undergrad, then they work for a while and then they go into law school. Personally, i fit into the second category which was i went, you know, i did my undergrad and i did my masters at uva and i worked for a couple years. I also started my own business Uh, and then i decided, you know what? I wanted to go into law and i'll go into why. High ultimately did that, especially as a cpa But i did fall into that second category of people. Now, if you were to ask me remain, what would you recommend? What do you think? Is the the best route to take? Honestly,
Speaker 1 05:19
I think that. If you.
Speaker 2 05:23
Go into law school after you've worked for a while, it's actually better. And the reason why i think that is a better choice is, you're already getting some real-life exposure with how, you know, the working world is and i think it makes you. Much more ready for for law school, whether you do it full-time or a part-time. And it will also give you some exposure as far as how the law fits into a lot of these other practices. Now, for some of you if you've decided, hey, i'm going to go from Undergrad and straight into law school. That's fine too. It just wasn't my experience and i'm happy with
Speaker 1 05:59
The experience that i had. Uh, but
Speaker 2 06:02
When you consider law school, there's a whole bunch of schools out there. And with me, you know, i i had gone to uva. And i had a chip on my shoulder thinking, you know what, i'm going to go to apply to the best law schools that are out there and i'm gonna get it. And it didn't happen. You know, lsats are one of those and i think right now, they're making it where it's an option, but else, that's where one of those where i didn't do so well on the LSATs. And i think a lot of these standardized tests especially for people who are minorities or considered minorities, these standardized tests were not met for us you know. And it does not equate to how well you're going to do in the field because i was one of the few people who got placed into big law at a top. Uh, amlaw 100 actually the Firm that i was working in was Top 20. And then my field it was in top 10 nationwide.
Speaker 1 06:57
So
Speaker 2 06:58
It had no indication as far as how well i ended up doing. But when i applied, you know, first round, i applied to all the top schools and i didn't get in And it was kind of crushing and it was humiliating, but it was also humbling. And i'm glad i had that experience because it just went to show me that. You know you you may be the the best at your school or you may have done a lot and i came in a lot of experience. But, Just like applying to undergrad and any of those. May not necessarily mean that you're going to get into any of your top schools. So, the second time that i went ahead and did it and i waited after a period of time, but i said, you know what, i'm going to give it one more try. I applied to, um, a wider variety of schools, including the top schools again, And the recommendation that i would have is kind of like the california bar exam. So when i took the bar california versus virginia completely two different states in terms of testing and how to apply the test. California was one of those tests, where you throw everything on the wall for the examined steel to see what sticks Virginia was very specific. But law school is like that. Law school is more like california. I think have your top schools but also apply to schools that may be not in your top category and just see which ones you get in after you you learn which ones you've gotten in. Um,
Speaker 1 08:23
You know, you can decide where you
Speaker 2 08:26
Ultimately will want to go. Now, the school that i went to was catholic university columbus, school of law was not a poorly ranked school, compared to some of the other schools in the area georgetown gw uva, mason William. And Mary of course, it wasn't ranked as high as they were the evening program was different because i did
Speaker 1 08:45
The
Speaker 2 08:45
Evening program. I was working full-time and i was also going to school law, school full-time, Uh, which was completely crazy. If people look at me and like what were you thinking? And uh, by the grace of god, i always say this. I Ended up doing, okay? Doing well, juggling all of those in addition to being married and a couple other things that i had going on, but it was really by the grace of god that i was able to do it. Law. School is a lot of work and then juggling in full-time work. Adds a whole lot of dimensions in there. So if you are considering that route, Really look within yourself and ask yourself. Can i do this? And of course, if you do it, you can always change back but Columbus school of laws were to wine that. I ultimately Decided to go to. And one of the things that i will tell you, and in retrospect, i had this In retrospect, one of the things you need to take into account is With some of the schools that are very
Speaker 1 09:44
Competitive. You're also going to have a Uh,
Speaker 2 09:48
Group of class that people in your classroom are going to be very competitive. And i've heard my share of horror stories about some of the schools that i was applying to. Versus where i was at in catholic, Columbus, school of law. You know, in some of the other schools and Of course, you'll have your own experience. People were really out to get each other. Uh, because they wanted to be the top of their class, they wanted to get into the big firms. Whereas i felt a columbus, especially in the evening program where a lot of us were Uh, working individuals. A lot of
Speaker 1 10:24
Us.
Speaker 2 10:26
You know, we did not have time to mess around, we looked out for each other and it was very collegial. I felt more like it was a family. Everybody was trying to help each other out, especially in the evening program. Because a lot of us were People who are working full time. And so that's one of the things that i would say is, you know, See if you can. Talk with people who are already there or if you know people that have gone there and get a better sense as far as what is the dynamics of the school because
Speaker 1 10:56
That
Speaker 2 10:56
Can play a big role in terms of how well you do too. I'd rather be placed in a school where maybe it's not as ranked as highly some of the others. But i had a Student body and i had people on the administration side that were ultimately, looking out for our well-being, and success, and helping us out along the way. So that's one of the things that i would recommend is, you know, checking out. Now, if you get into a top
Speaker 1 11:21
School,
Speaker 2 11:22
And, You know, you get in some other schools. Of course, if you want to pick the top school you pick the top school but see if it's a perfect. If it's a good fit for you it's like anything in
Speaker 1 11:32
Life. See if it's a good fit for you. And i did a lot of
Speaker 2 11:35
Recruiting on the big law side when i was working there. And one of the things that i would always tell people and especially people that just came out of school is really get a feel for. Will you fit in? Well here is it a good cultural fit for you because that is going to ultimately this determine how well you do, too. In the field. So, with law schools, there's a lot out there, you can, of course use any ranking system. Um, but i would say look at both the top schools in your area. Look at schools that maybe not in the top but also look at places that will give you scholarship or funding opportunities. Uh
Speaker 1 12:11
Because law school is not a, not a joke. When it comes to to how much you're gonna
Speaker 2 12:15
Have. Oh, at the end, i think that's one of the reasons why a lot of people. Will ultimately what try to go into big law. Make that money pay off those loans and then do something else. Uh, but it's going to be a lot of Debt. That's going to come along the way. And another reason why you should really consider uh why any of these schools, i'm always a proponent of higher education. Hence the reason why i did what i did. And having years of school i went to But it does come with a cost, right? Especially in this country. So, That's what i would say about the school. One of the questions that i had gotten was, you know, as far as the, the age For going to law school. In the evening program that i was in there was Really a wide spectrum of ages. You know you got some people who were and their late 20s like i was some people that were in there 30s and 40s and yet even people, you know, that were in their 50s. So i don't think it's really a question of how old you are. You can always have a career change, very late in life as long as there's something you want to do
Speaker 1 13:24
So.
Speaker 2 13:26
Age is not really a factor. Of course, if you're going into a program, like the day program have more younger people, if you want to call it that, You know, you the evening program, the part-time program was more for Working individuals until you did have more of a age gap. Whereas in the day program, it was more people in their, you know, early to mid 20s, or people who went from Undergrad to to college to law
Speaker 1 13:54
School. So that's what i would say about law schools. Research early on. Figure
Speaker 2 14:02
Out the costs figure out the funding and more importantly, See if you can talk with people who are there and see what their experiences are, one of the other things you can do in terms of, if you already know of where you would want to work. Schools have certain alumni app area schools, that that do a lot of recruiting and that's one of things you can look at your career services. You can find out where some of these people were placed reach out to them. Not that big of a deal. I reached out to a lot of people. I said, hey, I want to take you out for coffee, not that they couldn't afford the coffee, but i was look i just would like to talk to you about your experience and Kind of get a better understanding for what day to day looks like and actually did that when i was looking for Uh, career as well in big law. It's a lot of research that you should do to get a better understanding because look, until you're actually in that position, you're not going to know.
Speaker 1 14:56
The other thing that i'll tell you about law school is law school. Does not teach you the law.
Speaker 2 15:02
That's the very first thing we were told i'm like, what am i paying for? The very first thing that they told us was we are here to teach you how to think like a lawyer. How to think like a lawyer and it's a completely different way of looking at things. Even today when i'm talking with my kids about certain problems and analysis, we do it very differently. When it comes to the law. So it's not learning the law. It's more of Learning how to interpret it, what questions to ask, especially because your client's going to come to you with one question. And that's not the right question
Speaker 1 15:40
To ask.
Speaker 2 15:41
And you're going to be thinking about all the questions that they should have asked, but they didn't and not only that, You're going to figure out the problem. You're also going to figure out the solution or solutions and then present that to them. That's where the whole thinking. Like a lawyer aspect comes in.
Speaker 1 16:00
So, all that money that your ultimately paying is over the course of time to Help you learn how to think like a lawyer now. Yes and classes
Speaker 2 16:11
You will learn
Speaker 1 16:14
Respective areas of the law. But that's only as good at how it's analyzed because as a lawyer people will come to you with a problem and they're going to ask you and they're going to pay you to fix that problem. Whether you're in litigation, whether it's transactional, work pro bone or whatever.
Speaker 2 16:35
The
Speaker 1 16:35
Case may be, people go to lawyers when they have problems that they themselves. Can't handle. And so our biggest asset really is that problem. And learning to look at the world through the lens of a lawyer, and how a lawyer will think about a problem again, they'll come with a problem. A question
Speaker 2 16:59
And it's not the right question.
Speaker 1 17:01
That's not the right question. There's a whole bunch of other questions that they should have been thinking about but they didn't, but that's where you're going to come in. So law school will ultimately teach you that paradigm but when it comes to law school, you know, the first year, You have a lot of core classes. And first years core classes are the ones that really set up your grade point average for where you will get an internship. The vast majority of people will of course try to get into big law. There's a lot of prestige, a lot of money, etc. But then, of course, you have people who are like not gonna do big law. I want to do my own practice. I'm going to go work for a regional firm. I'm going to do something else but your grade point average the first year, and if you're a part-time student, part-time program is a four-year program. And, The credits are very similar. As a part-time student, i was taking 13 credits. Uh, going to school Monday through thursday, from like six to nine or 10 o'clock. Whereas with a full-time program, it's maybe 15 credits. So it was very small difference in terms of credits, But your first year your first year and a half, if you're doing a part-time program, You, you ultimately have to do. Well, you know, because that's your score set of classes and i think it's important to learn to outline yourself in the first year. But outlining takes a lot of time and effort, outline is basically taking everything your teacher, your professor has Taught you in putting that in the format where you can study for an exam and usually with law school, you have one exam. And that's it first here. I think they'll be a little bit more lenient and they'll give you A midterm and then a final but then it just becomes a final that one exam, basically determines how well you do in the class. And so this whole concept of outlining the one thing i will say is After you kind of get a handle of it, those commercial outlines because that's also what's used for bar, prep. Whatever you end up you doing for for bar prep, that's what they will use. And i started to use the commercial outlines too because i had a way to to
Speaker 2 19:07
Study to learn. By that time i also knew how to analyze a problem.
Speaker 1 19:11
Well, enough that i focused more on learning the factors and then applying it to the facts itself. The other thing i will say about law, school, law school, really teaches you how to become a litigator. So for those of you who've seen lawyers on tv and they're in front of the judge and their front of the jury, they're doing their opening arguments telling about how this murderer, you know. Did. In fact had the intent to kill someone That's the litigation where you go to court. And, The other type of work is transactional work. Transactional work. For example, i was an energy law. I was a transactional lawyer people came to me and they say, hey, we want you to set up an agreement for us to do this or that. And we would Basically bring their ideas to life in the form of words, through agreements. Or if there was
Speaker 2 20:03
A
Speaker 1 20:03
Problem, they would come to us, we would interpret the contracts and then maybe we'll pass it on to our litigation folks. But litigation is where you're going to court. You're writing briefs, you're doing the research, you're doing the blue booking. Oh, you're going to have fun with blue booking. That's the way where citations are done. It has somewhat change from what i've heard that they do offer more elective courses and to transactional. But, As a part-time. Evening student. I did not have a luxury of doing additional electives because i was already, there's already jam-packed schedule, on top that i had to work. So i had to do the core classes. I did a few electives here and there but the vast majority of the time it is more litigation based work. And so
Speaker 2 20:48
That's why when most students graduate from law school, they'll go into an area of the law where it
Speaker 1 20:54
Involves directly being in the courts. You'll clerk. Your clerk for someone where you learn the the system. And i was thinking about clerking as well, but I was also working.
Speaker 2 21:07
At. Uh, what i was working and
Speaker 1 21:10
The
Speaker 2 21:10
Government at that point, i was doing energy.
Speaker 1 21:13
Cp type work at the firk and so i was going to go back to doing that in summer, one other thing i just remembered It's surprised me. When i was applying for different jobs.
Speaker 2 21:26
That even though as an evening student, they knew that that the type of caliber of evening. Students that are there you, you have a very strict schedule, you're working full time, you know, about
Speaker 1 21:38
Time management. Uh, Some people were reluctant higher part-time or evening students because They did not know if you were serious enough to take a summer job.
Speaker 2 21:50
Knowing that you wouldn't have your full-time job. And so, the way that i had done, i had formed a relationship with my boss at that time and he was very encouraging of me going to to law school. And so when i had, i had to have a conversation when and said that look, there's this great opportunity because at that time i did place in the big law for a summer internship and that really was a door to getting into it. If you wanted to do big law, you needed to get a summer internship and after that's internship, your chances of getting a full-time offer were pretty high. And so i told them i was like, look, i have this great opportunity. Um, But it means that i won't be able to work in the summer here. You know, and and depending on a relationship with your employer, or your boss, or whoever it is, you may be able to work something out and we did, we were
Speaker 1 22:35
Able to work something out and i was able to get my job back after that summer internship. But some of these places they they want to see how serious you are which kind of sucks to be honest because you're already Putting in. The effort to go to school in the evenings while you're working a full-time job. And they don't think that you're asked serious,
Speaker 2 22:55
Uh, but they will wonder, you know, are you able to Leave wherever you're working outcome work in the summer and then you know you may or may not have a job after that when you go back to school for your final year. So that is something to think about or plan accordingly and by the grace of God had worked out for me. And i was very proactive about it. But really, when it comes,
Speaker 1 23:18
Down to You know. Law schools. They Will set you up to become a litigator, doesn't mean that they don't have transactional level work. And one of the things that i often tell, or would tell students, when they would come in, For our internship program is look. While you're there, try some transactional level work because a lot of people, they're
Speaker 2 23:42
Afraid of doing transactional level work because they are not sure what it is.
Speaker 1 23:46
Uh, and so i would tell them this is a great opportunity. You're at an awesome firm.
Speaker 2 23:50
With a lot of opportunities,
Speaker 1 23:52
A lot of areas to dabble in, this is the time to do it. You might be surprised with how much you actually enjoy transactional level work and then you have other groups of people who are afraid of going into the courtroom afraid of being in front of the judge. And some people will say, well, that's a transactional lawyer for you.
Speaker 2 24:09
Uh, and i laugh at that, because one of the things that i did within my own practice was i was a transactional lawyer.
Speaker 1 24:16
But on the pro bono side, i did the litigation based work. I did immigration asylum, social
Speaker 2 24:23
Security where i was in the court where i was before a judge. And i wanted to get that experience
Speaker 1 24:29
Because i didn't want to just be where i knew how to do things on the transactional side. I also wanted to be comfortable going in in front of a judge and the courtroom, and having that experience and we had some of my best experiences was on the pro bono side. Um, you know, being in the courtroom. And, you know, basically Uh, presenting the case of our our clients So, law school ultimately does prepare you to be a litigator. Uh, but it doesn't mean that you have to be. And so, i think, again, it comes down to the experience component, being able to get some experience for
Speaker 2 25:06
The transactional level side to just see what it is.
Speaker 1 25:09
So that kinda takes me into career options. You know, i think with, with being a lawyer, you really do have a lot of options and it's kind of difficult to see that at first, especially, you know, when i was starting out in big law
Speaker 2 25:23
In mind, you, i had worked in big four. I had worked in the government. I had my own business, And even within Bigelow, there was a lot of different areas i could go into Um,
Speaker 1 25:35
But then your scope starts to narrow because as you're continuing your practice, you are going to become an expert in that field. So, when i came in, they told me, they said Remain. What do you want to do? And actually, let me tell you a story when you're going to Interview for these. Uh, places you of course have your big law firms and
Speaker 2 25:59
I applied to the big law firms. But one thing that we were told is that it's especially that point in time. It was extremely difficult to place. And i was only one of 12 students in my opening class. Am i starting class at Aiken Gump?
Speaker 1 26:15
In one of those other people was from catholic. So it was myself and this one other person, Who and the thing about?
Speaker 2 26:24
These classes, you really become close with these people. You go, you go through a lot and i do consider them really close friends and she and i actually are still in touch. Of course, i'm not going to say her name for for privacy reasons, but it was my self in this one, other individual. That was from catholic, that got placed at aching up. And they only took 12 people for all the schools so it was a very small class and so there was a lot of competition,
Speaker 1 26:46
You're probably asking, well remain, how did you place? The way that i place was among other things. My experience, i had a lot of working experience. The thing that they asked me about in a lot of the interviews that i went into was about the business that i created. There were fascinated by it and i just kind of shrugged
Speaker 2 27:05
My shoulders and i said now, you know, it is what it is. But i remember the the when i got into my third level round of interviews and there's three rounds of interviews um at these big law firms. The last round was with like the headache of the area of the field that i went into and again he asked me about my business. And again i didn't make a big deal out of it. But he told me it's stuck with me to this day. He said for me and you're doing the exact same thing that we're doing
Speaker 1 27:30
Is just different volume of money that comes into play. And that was the god honest truth because what i was doing exactly what they were doing and the fact that i had my own business, they knew i knew how to work with clients. They knew i knew, how to run a business. They knew that i was able to self-manage now my saying that you need to do it No, you don't need to start your own business. I started the business for my own reasons. I enjoyed it. I liked it. I still have it to this day. And they saw that i was passionate about it. But the other thing that you need to know is, you need to research the firms. Being on, both the interviewee side and on the interviewer side,
Speaker 2 28:11
I can tell you there's a
Speaker 1 28:13
Lot of people that come into it, not prepared. They give the same half-assed answers as the other person. So i
Speaker 2 28:19
Came into it and i read this book called the gorilla market. The gorilla tactics for getting the legal job of your dreams. And it was it's thick, it's huge but it was very informative. I went into every single one
Speaker 1 28:32
Of those interviews, having interviewed the firm, the people, so that i could make and have intellectual conversations with them, and it's not to be a robot, you also have to show your personal side. Uh, which i think i'm good at, you know, i can get a small out of somebody that i'm speaking to would even if i'm on the interviewer or interview east side. But one of the things when i was talking with the hiring partner, he asked me why i wanted to work at that firm. And i told him how the firms. Values fit in line with my own and at the end of that, he stopped me said, remaining the time that i've been doing this and maybe not the firm for 30 years. He said, you are the only one that has been able to do that and tie it in to make it sound that you just didn't memorize
Speaker 2 29:17
It, you also applied it and right there, the trajectory of our conversation, went into more of remain. What do you want to do at this firm? And let me go ahead and introduce it. Some other people
Speaker 1 29:26
At that moment that was a tipping point where i knew. I had it in the bag.
Speaker 2 29:32
And i was genuine about it but i did my research beforehand.
Speaker 1 29:35
And i didn't take it because look, someone coming from my background.
Speaker 2 29:39
Nobody in my family was a lawyer, my dad had gone to the law school for one year when he was in afghanistan,
Speaker 1 29:44
But we did not come from a family of lawyers. So for me, i took it that this is an opportunity for me to do something different with my own life and the opportunities that i may have not had otherwise. So i took it seriously, do your research,
Speaker 2 29:58
Research to people that you are going to be interviewing, because they will give you a list of those people and be ready and come their smile in because look, a smile can also make a big difference and be yourself.
Speaker 1 30:09
But definitely
Speaker 2 30:09
Research, the firms research, the people that you are going to be applying with and of course contact your career services early on. Because there is a timeline for this process. It's not just hey one day, you're like, well i'm going to start applying to these firms. By that time you're already too late. So get ahead of it. But when it comes to, Going back to the works, out of it, transactional type work, was the work
Speaker 1 30:33
That i had done and they had asked me look remain, you're coming in with both government experience, which was regulatory, which is both
Speaker 2 30:39
Litigation and transaction. You're coming in with business experience, i.e myself as a cpa and you're coming in with energy experience because i was working at the firk And i wanted to stay away from corporate law. I didn't want to have anything to do with corporate law because what i actually paid attention to the people that were there and i spoke with people and i realized at that particular point in time,
Speaker 1 31:02
That group was working too many long hours and there was a high burnout rate. I don't want to be a part
Speaker 2 31:08
Of that and i said yeah you know what, i've done enough corporate type work. I want to look more at energy and regulatory and ultimately i decided to do energy level work, which was more renewables a little bit later on my career. But first of was traditional energy related to gas and and oil.
Speaker 1 31:26
Because i had done that at the the firk and so You know,
Speaker 2 31:30
They asked me what do you want to do? And what i will tell you is, even if you're not sure give them a few things because if you do get a summer internship, especially with big law, you can look at different areas and get
Speaker 1 31:42
Some of the experience because there will be different assignments. And i do recommend that because when i was an intern, i actually
Speaker 2 31:48
Worked in a lot of. I did international trade, i did energy. Um, you know, i did some
Speaker 1 31:54
Some corporate work also and i kind of expand, i expanded my horizons. When it comes to that because i wanted to be able to see what was there. I did some employment labor work,
Speaker 2 32:04
And it's great because i got to meet some people who were in those fields. And once i started working, it was there. But as far as career options i think
Speaker 1 32:12
The
Speaker 2 32:13
Best way to do it is you can do all the research in the world, but until you're actually getting the work, And speaking with some of these people, Who are in the field. You're not going to have a better way of understanding, what the work entails. And when you're coming into your career early on, You know, it's going to be a lot of the sometimes mundane work that you get as a first year. And especially in big law, you're going to get paid a lot of money doing it. But you're like man, this is boring. What i'll tell you is they're building blocks for your second year, third year, fourth year, and as you progress through your career,
Speaker 1 32:50
You know, often i will tell and i mentored a lot of people that were coming in especially in their first year, i
Speaker 2 32:56
Will tell them look a lot of this work. May seem boring may seem mundane
Speaker 1 33:00
But i promise you a year to years out, you're going to realize how these were all building blocks for what you're going to do. So career-wise, there's any aspect of the world economy that you can think of there is a legal component and illegal side of it.
Speaker 2 33:15
And i think, It really depends on what interests you.
Speaker 1 33:19
What gets you going? You know, you have some people who went into medicine, but they decided they want to go on the law. You had some people who are in the business world that go into more business type work. Uh, i think it's it's best to do that. Uh to kind of get some of that experience. So then you have an idea as far as what you want to do. Can you change your career?
Speaker 2 33:40
Yes, you can.
Speaker 1 33:43
Um, but it does require work. You can move from one area to another, you need to do it a little bit earlier on, in my opinion because
Speaker 2 33:50
You know, at a certain point, you're going to be working for a couple partners. And if you want to transact transition to another area, one, you have to be able to see is their need for it and two, you will likely get assignments from Both. One partner and the other and i just remembered billable hours, man. I i hated billable hours. That's one thing i can tell you. I did not like i lived in Uh,
Speaker 1 34:17
And basically, six minute increments, and i had to document everything because when you're building a client, the client's going to want to know
Speaker 2 34:25
What did you do? Okay. I did not like billable hours. I didn't like the whole billing aspect. At all. A lot of people don't like it, you know, i'm so glad i moved away from that. It just Was one of those areas where you had, of course, you have assistance and i had assistance, who would help me with my time, i would tell them. This is what i did and put it in, but just
Speaker 1 34:47
The whole keeping track of it. And it's very important to keep track of. It was something i did not enjoy and i don't miss. Okay. Uh, but yeah, you can definitely transition. From one
Speaker 2 34:59
Area to another. The one thing i will tell you is don't do something that is trendy, don't do something. That is hot right now just because it is hot, it may be hot right now. A couple years from now that area of the law may not be. And so, it's something that you need to enjoy the people. That who do well,
Speaker 1 35:15
Are the ones that actually enjoy the work that they do? Now, my area specifically was energy, and then it became
Speaker 2 35:26
Uh, more on the tax side and the tax side is where my own personal business is. I've
Speaker 1 35:31
Enjoyed the tax law side of it, for those of my clients who are with me, they know when they speak with me. I get rasled and dazzled with with tax, but it's something i've enjoyed and it does time in my cpa type work and that's why i've continued it. To this day.
Speaker 2 35:49
So i think in terms of careers there's a lot of choices out there, but even if you decide that you want to get away from working at a firm working at a business, you'd be surprised that how many people who were previously lawyers that went into a different field. With their law background. Tv. Authors writers, you know, that kind of comes natural in our line work, they went on to become business people.
Speaker 1 36:14
Uh, and so even at one of the, the schools that my daughter goes to, The person that owns the school and supportive school. Um, but
Speaker 2 36:24
She went to uva law and so we kind of talked about that and i asked her what she did beforehand and she was doing litigation
Speaker 1 36:33
Type work in the torts and she
Speaker 2 36:36
Did that for a while decided hey she want to do something different. So now she owns a school that she and her husband are running and they're doing very well.
Speaker 1 36:42
So even
Speaker 3 36:44
With that now, some of you may be thinking, well, i go through law school and you go through your law career to ultimately
Speaker 4 36:49
Decide to that. You do something else and the answers it differs for people.
Speaker 1 36:56
You know, people have different reasons but the one thing that you will always take with you, is
Speaker 2 37:00
That whole idea of how does a lawyer think and it's a completely different problem, solving analysis. Which you will carry on with you to the rest of your life. So, i think that's A good primer if you want to call it on law school and law career. And hopefully, that was informative. There's a lot more that you can go into that. I'm not going to because this is just more of a focus as far as what law school law careers involved in entail. But certainly i think
Speaker 1 37:29
The the one main thing that stands out is it's good to kind of get some exposure early on and see. Is this for you? Um, And just like anything else you want to make sure that it's a good fit because if you're not happy it's going to show up in your work and You're going to be miserable, you don't want to do that.
Speaker 4 37:47
Uh but again there's a lot of lawyers who who love what they do including myself and i have no regrets about going into law school, going at the big law and doing what i'm doing. Now, i think a lot of those were springing boards into where i'm at in life right now.
Speaker 1 38:00
And it was good to have those experiences and i've decided to take the law side of it, my cpa side. Into the direction that i want to. So it gives me some, you know, more of a balanced life than what i have previously.